Ellen Wrote:Wow that’s cool that you find my replies interesting. I think dialogue is always more useful for solving psychological problems than trying to analyze them on your own.

=D

The problem with any form of psychoanalysis is we are limited by our own view of the situation. And by the assumptions we (or an external agent, for example a therapist) applies to the ‘drama’ (It helps to see your life as a series of small plays and each time you adopt a ‘role’; say student, daughter, friend, you add something unique to that part. Think about Chekhov's play ‘The Seagull’ and you are on the right track. )

Once we have built our case history all we can do is go round in circles unless we can introduce and debate new knowledge.. =D

Quote:Btw, I got carried away with Photoshop too when I first had it, could sit at the PC through the nights making all sorts of collages and editing photographs hehe. It was lots of fun. Not sure what Cmap is though because I haven’t heard about it before.

Sitting up all night making collages, you sound just like me. :lol:

I have found a good explanation of Concept Maps here:

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.msu.edu/~luckie/ctools">http://www.msu.edu/~luckie/ctools</a><!-- m -->

…and the software is here: (although I actually use pen and paper to make mine.)

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://cmap.coginst.uwf.edu/index.html">http://cmap.coginst.uwf.edu/index.html</a><!-- m -->

I like Barracuda’s idea of using XML too:

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The cognitive map on my wall allows me to see the relationship between environment, physiology, behaviour, thought, and affect in anxiety disorders. For example we know linguistics plays an important role in thought and affect, but did you also know semantics has an indirect role in physiology too?

Look at Katherine’s post lepidopterous larva:

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Katherine claims to be afraid of the word гусеница, however we know this is not really the case; in fact the word is just a symbol or signifier she uses to represent her actual fear, which in this case is the larvae of the butterfly. When she sees the word a part of Katherine’s brain compares it with the form or concept (‘the signified’) she associates the signifier with and this in turn triggers her phobia just as if the signified stimulus is actually present.

Actually you might be able to help me, I want to explain this to Katherine and suggest she practice the techniques I described using a neutral word (signifier) until she feels ready to move on to doing it for real. JonnyJonny_UK has translated some of the more difficult words into Russian, but I am still not sure Katherine understands what I am trying to tell her which must be very frustrating to say the least. Would you mind explaining the problem and my suggestion to her in Russian (preferably with out using the word гусеница). I does not have to be a translation, I just want to get the concept across and see if that works any better than me trying to simplify things.. =D

Quote:Thanks for getting into the details of the melatonin cycle. I have known some of that before and I agree it’s very interesting to understand the chemistry of what’s going on in your brain in different situations. Wish it was just as easy to control it though hehe.

You are welcome. =D I have always thought it strange how easily it can be triggered by just a thought and yet to extinguish the response can takes months. Have you ever read any of Pavlov’s work with neurotic dogs? After his St Petersburg laboratory flooded in 1924 some of the dogs he was working with developed a form of anxiety disorder that could be partially controlled if the dog could smell the scent of the lab assistant. ssurprised

Quote:Yeah when I’m on the metro train I am scared of being trapped.

Lets say you were trapped. What do you think might happen or rather what do you fear happening?

Quote:The worst thing for me is when a train stops in the tunnel at a red light. It hardly ever stops for more than few seconds but I get very unsettled straight away. Actually the other day I was on a metro train and it stopped for unusually long, about 5 minutes or so. And even though the driver kept announcing that everything is ok and the train will go soon, it still made me very nervous and I could hardly keep myself under control. Fortunately I was with my boyfriend so he kept calming me down. I think it would have been too difficult for me to be in this situation alone.

This is interesting because it means you trust your boyfriend enough to be calmed by him, so again it is not a trust issue it is a control issue. In other words the reason you peek out from under the blindfold is not because you do not trust the other person but the fact the blind fold deprives you of being in control. Do you agree?

Can you recognise any of the thoughts in you mind when the train stops? These are called Negative Automatic Thoughts (NATs) and just like dreams we all have them from time to time but we rarely remember most of them.

Do you ever travel alone on the metro or is there always someone you know with you?

Quote:Another reason I dislike metro is that 3 or 4 years ago there was a terrorist attack on the train. A suicide bomber went into the train in the rush hour in the morning and many people were killed. That was pretty shocking and I tried to avoid the metro as much as I could but unfortunately it’s the main transport in Moscow, especially if you don’t have a car. So I guess these two fears together are not a very good combination even though I still travel on the metro almost every day.

Did your fears start before or after terrorist attack and if it was after did it make things worse or add any new symptoms?

Quote:I have read the part about sensory processing a few times but it still left me confused. I’m afraid I don’t exactly understand what you mean and my thirst for knowledge makes me ask you to try and explain it again if you don’t mind?

Let’s start with inputs and the six sensors: hearing, sight, smell, touch, taste, and proprioception (or if you prefer body awareness) – put your hands on your lap and close you eyes, now say the name of a body part, nose for example then without opening you eyes put touch the part with first your right hand then you left. Clever eh? :lol: Now let’s take a quick look at the nervous system, it looks rather complex and daunting at first however all we really need to know for now is it can be excitatory (imagine someone stroking the sole of your foot with a feather) or inhibitory (you put a sock on your foot so you cannot feel the feather), and the limbic system decides how these impulses should balance out. However, once the stimuli has been collected the brain sorts the raw input, discarding most and only processing the pieces ‘it thinks’ might need for its survival. (As you know Ellen, in reality the limbic system does not ‘think’ per se this just to help me get my point across. :lol: ) Now we both know that environments very not only from place to place, but also by season, (which reminds me where are your pictures for the Ofear! photo competition? :laugh: ) So rather than a permanent attached to one schema or blueprint (think of a visual instruction manual for how to live your life) The neurons can adapt. All very basic stuff really. =D

Now we have some possible problems with this, one, a person is somehow deprived of there senses; two, the nerves are over or under sensitive, three we have become conditioned to the wrong stimulus.

So what I think might be happening in your case is you acutely aware of your environment. Sights, sounds smells and anything that does not fit or make you feel you have less control over yourself. triggers your brain into nervous system into action.As I said before notice how your fear levels change depending on how you interpret each new piece of information. As we have seen before in the case of Katherine there is no direct pathway between language area and the area controlling our emotions i.e. emotions are a complex physiological response and the brain is hard wired to the rest of the body through the cranial nerves, however, the body responds much more slower than the brains for example the noradrenaline released from the adrenal glands takes several minutes to get into the blood stream as do the hormones cortisol and adrenaline whereas the in the brain it is a much faster reaction. Does this make more sense? =D

(14/10/07 - edited to add: In your case as in mine, because there is no direct path between 'thoughts' and 'emotions' our thoughts them selves work as an internal stimulus keeping the 'fear' cycle going and when your boyfriend suggested an acceptable alternative thought it is rather like a mental sock being put over you nervous impulses shappy ).

Quote:Sorry I told you about my parents when you were asking me about a different thing, I must have misunderstood. Anyway, I’m sure the more information I give, the more we have to talk about, right?

:lol: That is okay. True the more information you share the more we have to talk about and I found it very interesting. =D

Quote:Well, talking about people of my age group, which you defined very correctly, I can say that my two best friends are from my uni and the 3 of us are top students of the course and the other close friend I have is studying at the best University in Moscow so I don’t think I have a reason to think of them as less intelligent. I have to add though, even though it might sound rude, that when I was at school I thought that most kids around me were idiots lol, but looking at people at my Uni now I think exactly the opposite.

I think this and what you told me about you parents, your mum in particular, confirms my thoughts about you having a higher than average intelligence, wouldn’t you agree? =D

Quote:When you asked me whether I trust myself I had to think about it for a little while. In the end I decided that most of the time I trust myself apart from when I know that someone else is a lot more professional in a certain field than me, in which case I would rather trust that other person in certain questions. Does that make sense?

Yes it makes perfect sense. ssmile Would you say you are a confident or a shy person. On here you seem very confident, however as I cannot see your body language it is hard to tell for sure.

Quote:Thanks for keeping replying to me, I’m enjoying it very much too!

You are welcome; I think it is nice when someone shares an interest takes the time to reply. I believe it helps us both grow as people. =D

Now it’s my turn to apologize for the delay – I was pretty busy at the Uni lately (which doesn’t happen often lol) and had to go places so didn’t have much free time. I did go to the football game Russia vs England yesterday though, which was a blast! It was my first time at a stadium that big and the atmosphere was amazing! Ok, now back to the topic hehe!

Well I’m always ready to debate new information and I try to answer your questions in detail to provide the information that could be useful.

Oh now I understand what you mean by Cmaps! Of course I have seen them. Detectives use them to solve crimes, and I guess they could be just as useful for solving some personal issues etc? I have never tried to make one but for some reason I don’t feel very keen to try it. Maybe I should give it a go though just to see what it comes up with.

I understand what you mean about semantics affecting physiology, it’s just because a certain word is associated with a certain object so seeing or hearing the word is enough to trigger the reaction to that object itself. Of course it will be different in different languages but as you suggest it helps to choose a different word for that object, a word that is not associated with it, so it won’t trigger the reaction as much. I will gladly explain your thoughts to Katherine in Russian, hope you don’t mind if I do it tomorrow though? It’s my day off so I should have plenty of time.

Yes I have heard of Pavlov’s experiments and the flood story and I agree it’s amazing how small things can trigger something so long-lasting.

Ok, now my metro problem. I actually had to think for a while why I’m afraid of being trapped. I could think of many reasons but they all sounded pretty silly and I knew they weren’t true. For example, my first thought was that I’m afraid that I will be stuck there and nobody will come to my rescue. But at the same time I know that if anything like that happened, there would be rescue teams evacuating all the passengers etc – I mean, they are not gonna just leave hundreds of people in the middle of the tunnel on the train, plus they will have to get the trains running as soon as possible. But the reason I’m afraid of it is similar to being stuck in a lift – most people understand that you’re gonna be rescued but for many people it’s still pretty scary cause you are not sure when you’re gonna be free again. Would you say I fear of losing control because if I’m trapped on the train my life and safety will depend on other people and I will not know anything about what they are doing until they actually come for us? Another reason is that I wouldn’t be able to get out of there myself. The tunnels are very narrow so normally you can’t get past the train plus I doubt it’s safe to walk along the track anyway cause the rails are under high voltage plus there could be another train coming towards you etc. I mean, if the bus breaks, you just get off it and walk home but on the metro there is literally no way of getting out until someone comes for you. I guess that causes a feeling of helplessness, almost like on the plane. I think that answers my question to why I’m only afraid to travel on planes and metro trains, doesn’t it?

After all this writing and thinking I think I would agree that it is probably the control issue. I do travel on the metro alone most of the time but definitely prefer to be with someone I know. My anxiety decreases a lot when I’m not alone.

I guess my NATs on the metro train are usually “Why did we stop?”, “Are we gonna go soon or is something really wrong with the train and it won’t go anymore?”, “Why are we stopping for more than 2 seconds?” lol etc. Also when the train is moving I notice myself thinking “Why are we going so fast? Is it normal?” or “Why are we slowing down? Are we gonna stop or not?”. Obviously, I don’t think that all the time but only when the speed is a lot faster or slower to what I’m used to. After using the metro for 20 years you sorta get used to the sounds hehe.

My fear of the metro started before the terrorist attack. Actually it started the first time I went on the metro on my own. I remember trying to read a book I had with me to get distracted from my feeling of anxiety but it wasn’t very strong back then. I think it’s important to add that before that I had traveled on the metro a lot with my Mum and never had a slightest bit of anxiety. The attack made my fear a lot worse and I had to take light calming pills before going to the metro but it’s a lot better now and I don’t have to do that anymore.

Thank you for explaining the sensory processing again and this time I think I got it! But there is still something I didn’t understand. Are you saying that I’m conditioned to the wrong stimulus, ie my thoughts are making me feel fear when I’m not supposed to or did I get it all wrong?

That’s pretty flattering for me to hear you mention that my intelligence is pretty high, I don’t really like saying that sort of stuff about myself because I don’t want to sound bigheaded lol. All I know is that I’m good at studying and like to learn new things but I have met quite a few people who I thought were more intelligent than me. To answer your other question, I’d say that I’m more confident than shy but I’m an introvert so sometimes can come across as shy to other people.

I agree that our conversation is very thought-provoking and I really enjoy getting your replies and replying to it

PS By the way, I have taken a picture for the Ofear Competition, gonna submit it soon, what about yours?

Ellen Wrote:Now it’s my turn to apologize for the delay – I was pretty busy at the Uni lately (which doesn’t happen often lol) and had to go places so didn’t have much free time. I did go to the football game Russia vs England yesterday though, which was a blast! It was my first time at a stadium that big and the atmosphere was amazing! Ok, now back to the topic hehe!

That is okay, you are young education and fun should come first although I seem to remember fun came before education when I was a student. :lol:

Quote:Well I’m always ready to debate new information and I try to answer your questions in detail to provide the information that could be useful.

A willing student, even better.

Quote:Oh now I understand what you mean by Cmaps! Of course I have seen them. Detectives use them to solve crimes, and I guess they could be just as useful for solving some personal issues etc? I have never tried to make one but for some reason I don’t feel very keen to try it. Maybe I should give it a go though just to see what it comes up with.

There is some valid criticism of mapping techniques compared to more traditional methods and for note taking I use the Cornell method. However, the treatment of psychiatric disorders (both psychotic and non-psychotic types) is like crime solving; we have a victim (the self) and a ‘crime’ (the symptoms) surrounded by clues and by building a ‘case’ we can hopefully solve the mystery.

Quote:I understand what you mean about semantics affecting physiology, it’s just because a certain word is associated with a certain object so seeing or hearing the word is enough to trigger the reaction to that object itself. Of course it will be different in different languages but as you suggest it helps to choose a different word for that object, a word that is not associated with it, so it won’t trigger the reaction as much. I will gladly explain your thoughts to Katherine in Russian

Yes that is it exactly and thank you for putting my thoughts in to Russian. Hopefully Katherine will be able to make a fast recovery. =D

Quote:Ok, now my metro problem. I actually had to think for a while why I’m afraid of being trapped. I could think of many reasons but they all sounded pretty silly and I knew they weren’t true. For example, my first thought was that I’m afraid that I will be stuck there and nobody will come to my rescue. But at the same time I know that if anything like that happened, there would be rescue teams evacuating all the passengers etc – I mean, they are not gonna just leave hundreds of people in the middle of the tunnel on the train, plus they will have to get the trains running as soon as possible. But the reason I’m afraid of it is similar to being stuck in a lift – most people understand that you’re gonna be rescued but for many people it’s still pretty scary cause you are not sure when you’re gonna be free again. Would you say I fear of losing control because if I’m trapped on the train my life and safety will depend on other people and I will not know anything about what they are doing until they actually come for us?

Yes I think this is part of it. If we look at your three fears, we have planes: in the unlikely case of the plane having to make an emergency landing you would have to rely on others to rescue you, the metro, relying on a rescue team again, and final a lift, someone else has to release you.

Quote:I think that answers my question to why I’m only afraid to travel on planes and metro trains, doesn’t it?

Yes it does. It also demonstrate that we do not need years of psychotherapy to uncover our fears, the answers are already within us; all it takes is someone to ask the right questions.

Quote:After all this writing and thinking I think I would agree that it is probably the control issue. I do travel on the metro alone most of the time but definitely prefer to be with someone I know. My anxiety decreases a lot when I’m not alone.

Just a thought do you think there could be an underlying fear of abandonment? That is to say if you have someone you know with you, even if they are in the same predicament you will be able to comfort and protect each other?

Quote:I guess my NATs on the metro train are usually “Why did we stop?”, “Are we gonna go soon or is something really wrong with the train and it won’t go anymore?”, “Why are we stopping for more than 2 seconds?” lol etc. Also when the train is moving I notice myself thinking “Why are we going so fast? Is it normal?” or “Why are we slowing down? Are we gonna stop or not?”. Obviously, I don’t think that all the time but only when the speed is a lot faster or slower to what I’m used to. After using the metro for 20 years you sorta get used to the sounds hehe.

My fear of the metro started before the terrorist attack. Actually it started the first time I went on the metro on my own. I remember trying to read a book I had with me to get distracted from my feeling of anxiety but it wasn’t very strong back then. I think it’s important to add that before that I had traveled on the metro a lot with my Mum and never had a slightest bit of anxiety.

This is interesting, from what you have told me you and your mum are very close and I imagine she is a very confident woman and also very protective of you even when you turned into a rebellious teenager. :lol: Would you agree?

How old were you when you first travelled alone on the metro, a teenager perhaps? When I asked you about your peers you replied, “…when I was at school I thought that most kids around me were idiots “ but now you are at uni you are mixing with peers of equal intelligence; “my two best friends are from my uni and the 3 of us are top students of the course and the other close friend I have is studying at the best University in Moscow”. This suggests that you were going though your adolescence when the fear started. The emerging woman wanting her independence and the child part fearful of losing her mother’s protection. Is this how you felt about travelling alone?

Quote:The attack made my fear a lot worse and I had to take light calming pills before going to the metro but it’s a lot better now and I don’t have to do that anymore.

On top of the normal apprehension any one would feel after hearing about something like that, one of your worse fears had come true. Now there seemed to be a real possibility of getting trapped in the tunnel. Fortunately you were able to hand that fear with the help of pills.

Quote:Thank you for explaining the sensory processing again and this time I think I got it!

You are welcome. =D

Quote:…there is still something I didn’t understand. Are you saying that I’m conditioned to the wrong stimulus, ie my thoughts are making me feel fear when I’m not supposed to or did I get it all wrong?

Yes, you are used to travelling on the metro and all the sensory information it gives out – mainly sound and motion from what you tell me. You also mention stopping at a red light while travelling with your boyfriend, could you see the signal was red or was it just that the train had stopped so you thought it was on red? I am trying to establish if vision plays a role in your fears. The brain will process this information automatically disregard most of it but enough will be stored so we can compare and contrast different pieces of information that may help us to survive in the future…

Cognitive Therapy identifies three levels of thinking:

1. Negative Automatic Thoughts (NATs), which we have already discussed.

2. Underlying assumptions and rules (underlying assumptions usually have an if – then construction. ‘If’ the train stops for longer than two seconds ‘then’ there could be something wrong.) (Rules on the other hand are the ‘should’ and ‘must’ statements.)

3. Core beliefs. (These are the views you hold about yourself, the world you live in, how people should behave, etc. They are not necessarily true take the character of Raskolnikov in Dostoevsky’s Crime and Punishment for example, I cannot see many people accepting his core beliefs as true. :wink:

Now look at your NATs again, can you see how the thinking part of the brain is trying to reinterpret the sensory information in a way that will fit in with your fears of being trapped? Your mind is constantly on the look out for contrasting information about how the train ‘should’ run.

So what is the answer? We can try to find some information on metros in the same way as we did with aeroplanes you can try relaxation while travelling on the metro first when someone is with you and then on your own. You can also try ‘flash card‘ with your NATs and alternative thoughts written on them. For example if the train really does speed up you will get home faster. =D Some thing I have been looking at for another member is the use of music to defeat noise related stress. (This is the reason I asked if you can actually see the red light from the train) The idea is to play soft background music just below conversational level, however I haven’t been able to contact symphony yet to discuss this and noise cancelling hearing aids. So whether it works in ‘real world’ scenarios we don’t yet know.

Quote:That’s pretty flattering for me to hear you mention that my intelligence is pretty high, I don’t really like saying that sort of stuff about myself because I don’t want to sound bigheaded lol. All I know is that I’m good at studying and like to learn new things but I have met quite a few people who I thought were more intelligent than me.

Sixteen posts (this is the seventeenth) none of which are in your first language and you have already uncovered most of the underlying thoughts that are perpetuating your fears. You have helped Katherine by explaining some linguistics principles that were hold her back and you are teaching yourself how to fly. I would say that is very impressive, wouldn’t you? =D

Quote: To answer your other question, I’d say that I’m more confident than shy but I’m an introvert so sometimes can come across as shy to other people.

When you think of your worse fears and the train stopping in the tunnel while you are on your own. What are your thoughts relating to the other passengers are you frightened of how they will react while you are wait to be rescued, do think they will cope and leave you alone or isn’t this part of your thinking?

Quote:I agree that our conversation is very thought-provoking and I really enjoy getting your replies and replying to it

Thank you. =D

Quote:PS By the way, I have taken a picture for the Ofear Competition, gonna submit it soon, what about yours?

:lol: I did try to take a picture actually, a grey squirrel amongst some leaves unfortunately the squirrel was so small when I had the film developed I could barely find him. :laugh:

Well at the moment I don’t have a chance to put fun before uni because I have just started working on my diploma project so I stay after lessons every day and teach rats to press the pedal for getting cheese hehe.

Yeah I guess I can understand how Cmaps can help “solving” a psychological problem but I personally prefer discussing the problem like we are doing now. Cmap can only give you concepts but discussion can give you new thoughts and ideas about them. I am sure making a Cmap would be helpful anyway though so I might give it a go sometime.

I hope Katherine will read my translation of your posts but unfortunately it doesn’t seem like she comes on this forum anymore. But if she ever comes back I think she will be pleasantly surprised.

I’m very pleased that through discussing my problems with you we managed to figure out the reason why I’m afraid of certain things, which is the feeling of not being in control. Now the main question is what to do about it all. The other day I was on the metro and the train started slowing down so I tried to think of what we have been discussing to try and control my anxiety but my thoughts got all panicky (note that my thoughts got panicky, not me hehe) and I couldn’t remember a single thing and couldn’t think straight until the train went with its normal speed again.

The fear of abandonment is a very interesting topic. My first reaction to that question was that there is no fear of abandonment and I couldn’t remember feeling like that. But then I remembered that when I was little I had a crazy phobia of staying alone in the flat. If I was to be left alone even for the shortest time I would start crying and asking when exactly the person will be back and if they were at least a minute late I would be worrying like crazy and thinking that they left me and won’t come back again. I got rid of this feeling as I grew up but still felt pretty nervous if somebody wasn’t at home late and I couldn’t reach them on the phone etc. I wonder if that has something to do with it?

Yes my Mum is very protective, maybe even overprotective but at the same time she would give me lots of freedom when I grew up. What I mean is, if I wanted to go out with friends she would let me but she would ask where we’re going, when we are gonna be back, take phone numbers of my friends and their parents etc. Not all the time of course, only if we were going somewhere far or for a long time. So basically I could do anything I wanted as long as my Mum could make sure I’m ok. I think it’s pretty obvious that this trait must run in the family cause I’m kinda the same lol.

The first time I traveled on the metro alone was pretty late, I must have been about 14 I think. I’m not sure whether I wanted my independence because I kinda always had it. As I said before my Mum gave me lots of freedom and I didn’t feel much pressure from all of these “precautions” of hers cause I thought it was natural and I would have done the same.

In that story I told you before, I didn’t see the red light but I just assumed there should be some signal in the tunnel to let the driver know when to stop. I know what you mean about my NATs trying to fit everything into my fears. I have heard that people with mania have a similar problem – they perceive any smallest event in such way that it only confirms their maniacal ideas.

I like your ideas about relaxation and flash cards. Even though I have to admit it is very difficult for me to relax on the metro in certain situations as I described before but I will keep trying. Unfortunately music won’t help on the metro cause it’s so noisy, I don’t understand how people use their mp3 players there cause I’ve tried it once and couldn’t hear much at all even on maximum volume lol.

To answer your other question, I do think think about other passengers, but again, in my “mania” fashion lol. For example, I think …”Oh, this guy seems pretty strong, he will be able to break the windows if necessary” lol. Crazy, I know.

Ok you have convinced me that I’m highly intelligent hehe but I can definitely say the same about you cause you seem to know virtually everything, even Russian literature!

Too bad about your photo with the squirrel but you should definitely make sure you participate in the next month’s competition!

Looking forward to your reply cause it’s getting more and more interesting. At least for me lol.

Sorry for the delay Ellen, I have been trying to find out what happens if a train breaks down in a tunnel... then a second time to find out what happen if a 'metro train' breaks down in a tunnel. Lol.

Ellen Wrote:Well at the moment I don’t have a chance to put fun before uni because I have just started working on my diploma project so I stay after lessons every day and teach rats to press the pedal for getting cheese hehe.

I would like to say lab work is fun but… :lol:

Quote:Yeah I guess I can understand how Cmaps can help “solving” a psychological problem but I personally prefer discussing the problem like we are doing now. Cmap can only give you concepts but discussion can give you new thoughts and ideas about them. I am sure making a Cmap would be helpful anyway though so I might give it a go sometime.

True, the police have their Cmap to conceptualise the anatomy of the crime but on its own it does noting, the police must ask question and gather evidence before they can use the map to find the real culprit.

In our case the map gives us a useful frame of reference for dealing with phobias however, by using a combination of dialectics a Socratic questioning we find the three suspects: fear of flying, metro, and lifts are really one in the same loss of control and a fear of abandonment which make my phobic Cmap pretty much redundant in this case. :lol:

Quote:I hope Katherine will read my translation of your posts but unfortunately it doesn’t seem like she comes on this forum anymore. But if she ever comes back I think she will be pleasantly surprised.

I hope she will too; it was very kind of you to take the time to translate for her. =D I received a message from Katherine, apparently she will be back in Moscow on the 6th of November so hopefully she will read it then.

Quote:I’m very pleased that through discussing my problems with you we managed to figure out the reason why I’m afraid of certain things, which is the feeling of not being in control. Now the main question is what to do about it all. The other day I was on the metro and the train started slowing down so I tried to think of what we have been discussing to try and control my anxiety but my thoughts got all panicky (note that my thoughts got panicky, not me hehe) and I couldn’t remember a single thing and couldn’t think straight until the train went with its normal speed again.

Yes it does take a lot of practice to be able to think straight under pressure, even those who claim to be able to do in naturally are usually mistaken – their thoughts become polarised with no room for manoeuvre, so we are all very proud of you for getting so far so fast. =D

You are probably already familiar with Dialectical Journaling especially if you have completed a literature course. There is a lot of crossover between modern psychotherapy, linguistics, and literary criticism. ssmile

(I have posted a simple Thought Diary here: (Edited to fix link 28/10/07) http://www.ofear.com/download/file.php?id=12&sid the same technique will work with any design. If you feel like translating we can even try making a Russian version _cheesygrin:: )

The first thing to do in any kind of therapy is to relax. Remember you are not debating for your university you are trying to find the truth of an argument through critical thinking. Before you leave for the metro, take a minute to relax close your eyes and visualise your journey starting in the station. Try to ‘feel’ the rhythm of your breath, it might help to put one hand on your tummy and feel in going in and out each time you breath. Now you are ready to practice your chosen relaxation technique, if you do not have one I suggest a shortened form of Progressive Muscular Relaxation (PMR) such as the one here:

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.twilightbridge.com/stress/complete/16pmr.htm">http://www.twilightbridge.com/stress/complete/16pmr.htm</a><!-- m --> (Last accessed 25/10/07)

Now let the thoughts flow into your mind some might take the form of words other images. Try not to analyses your thoughts just write them out in the form of a short statement the first negative thought that come in to view. Carry on until you cannot think of anything more, or you feel yourself becoming tired or distressed.

Relax again. In the first column of your Thought Diary write down the triggering event (the antecedent) For example; the train slows down.

Time: In this case we can skip the next column ‘Time’, as the event is imaginary, but if you are actually on the metro try to time how long the train is actually stationary I think you will be surprised.

Write the first thought in the third column of your Diary. For example; “Why is the train slowing down is it gonna stop?” Not “what if it stops and I am trapped?” these are two separate thoughts.

In the next column you can rate your level of anxiety with 0 being low and ten about to faint or have a heart attack and die! (I should point out that if you do become over stimulated your blood pressure will drop and you will faint just as if you were one of Pavlov’s dogs, I can honestly say I have never met anyone who has died of an anxiety attack. )

Before we move on to the next column I would like to mention Socratic questioning. If you are not familiar with the concept checkout this site:

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://ed.fnal.gov/trc/tutorial/taxonomy.html">http://ed.fnal.gov/trc/tutorial/taxonomy.html</a><!-- m --> (Last accessed 25/10/07)

Returning to our example we set up an argument:

Protagonist: “what if the train stops?”

Your alternative thought might be

Mentor: “What is the worse that could happen if the does stop?”

Protagonist: “I would be trapped”.

Mentor: “I this your real fear, that you would be trapped?”

Protagonist: “well yes…” (Hesitant)

Mentor: “Why do you think this is so frightening for you, do you fear not being rescued or is there something else?”

Protagonist: “I dread not being in control.” “I cannot breath” (Query claustrophobia). “I am scared I wont be rescued”. Etc.

Obviously both the protagonist voice and the mentor voice are yours. :lol:

Eventually you will become relaxed enough to accept the train at face value rather than trying to predict the future. Although as we are both enjoying participating in this thread I think you might want to look deeper into your fears. shappy

Quote:The fear of abandonment is a very interesting topic. My first reaction to that question was that there is no fear of abandonment and I couldn’t remember feeling like that. But then I remembered that when I was little I had a crazy phobia of staying alone in the flat. If I was to be left alone even for the shortest time I would start crying and asking when exactly the person will be back and if they were at least a minute late I would be worrying like crazy and thinking that they left me and won’t come back again. I got rid of this feeling as I grew up but still felt pretty nervous if somebody wasn’t at home late and I couldn’t reach them on the phone etc. I wonder if that has something to do with it?

I would say probably. Let’s look at your fears:

If the train stops it could be broken…

If the train is broken I will be trapped…

If I am trapped I will be unable to return to my group…

If I am unable to return to my group I will be (?)…

Perhaps your father leaving home had a more profound effect than you thought? What do you think?

Another possibility is that your fear of abandonment comes from a more recent source. Does the word ‘Курск’ invoke any thoughts or feelings?

Quote:Yes my Mum is very protective, maybe even overprotective but at the same time she would give me lots of freedom when I grew up. What I mean is, if I wanted to go out with friends she would let me but she would ask where we’re going, when we are gonna be back, take phone numbers of my friends and their parents etc. Not all the time of course, only if we were going somewhere far or for a long time. So basically I could do anything I wanted as long as my Mum could make sure I’m ok.

Of course if you are trapped in a lift or the metro you cannot contact your ‘group‘ be it your mum, your brother, boyfriend, whoever to let them know you are stuck and need help. Not only that but you will be late back and they might worry too. What do you think does this sound like you or would you say the fear of not being in control is greater?

Quote:I think it’s pretty obvious that this trait must run in the family cause I’m kinda the same lol.

…Or it could be conditioning? I think it is more likely you have learnt the behaviour. The rats in your project are learning to associate the pedal with food; you have done a similar thing with your mum, you have trained each other. _cheesygrin::

Quote:The first time I traveled on the metro alone was pretty late, I must have been about 14 I think. I’m not sure whether I wanted my independence because I kinda always had it. As I said before my Mum gave me lots of freedom and I didn’t feel much pressure from all of these “precautions” of hers cause I thought it was natural and I would have done the same.

The metros in London and Paris can be quite eerie at night; it would not take much to let one’s imagination run away with them. Is the Moscow one the same?

Quote:In that story I told you before, I didn’t see the red light but I just assumed there should be some signal in the tunnel to let the driver know when to stop.

Here the thinking part of the brain was trying to make sense of what was happening as you mention below. However the emotional, sensing part has not got the same picture, because from where you are sitting you cannot actually see the light is on red.

Quote:I know what you mean about my NATs trying to fit everything into my fears. I have heard that people with mania have a similar problem – they perceive any smallest event in such way that it only confirms their maniacal ideas.

True the main difference is with mania the person cannot understand that there beliefs are irrational, so even if the know something does not seem quite right, they never realise why.

Quote:I like your ideas about relaxation and flash cards. Even though I have to admit it is very difficult for me to relax on the metro in certain situations as I described before but I will keep trying. Unfortunately music won’t help on the metro cause it’s so noisy, I don’t understand how people use their mp3 players there cause I’ve tried it once and couldn’t hear much at all even on maximum volume lol.

So no to the music, If you are not easily embarrassed I still say PMR (as suggested above) is your best option, it is easy to master, you can do it sitting or lying down. Granted it does look a bit strange doing it in public. :lol:

As for the flashcards I would say after you have completed the dialectical journaling exercise write down your NATs as statements and on the back of the cards write your replies to yourself, this way you can first try to focus your thoughts and if that proves too difficult you have the second option of checking your previous answer. Does that aright with you?

Quote:To answer your other question, I do think think about other passengers, but again, in my “mania” fashion lol. For example, I think …”Oh, this guy seems pretty strong, he will be able to break the windows if necessary” lol. Crazy, I know.

Not crazy, because at the time the fear seems real so you are planning your escape. ssmile

Let’s look at what is likely to happen if the train did stop working:

From what I understand if a train gets stuck in a tunnel for any reason the driver contacts ‘Control’ who, if possible send a replacement train or if that is not possible isolated the power to the electrified rail before telling the driver to release the passengers through an emergency exit at the rear of the train. (I assume this is a normal train door with a manual override rather like the ones on planes). So no need to break the window and if he did the tunnels contain surveillance cameras so if anything happens to the driver or the train, for example someone trying to climb out of the broken window, someone will be watching and cut the power so he can get out safely. :lol:

I have found also this: (some of the links are in Russian only)

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Quote:Ok you have convinced me that I’m highly intelligent hehe but I can definitely say the same about you cause you seem to know virtually everything, even Russian literature!

=D

Quote:Too bad about your photo with the squirrel but you should definitely make sure you participate in the next month’s competition!

I do have a nice picture, perhaps I will try to send it to you and you can suggest a category for it.

Quote:Looking forward to your reply cause it’s getting more and more interesting. At least for me lol.

I have to say you have a talent for turning what appeared to be as ‘simple’ phobia in to a very interesting thread on abandonment, loss of control, virtual reality and even Russian literature. shappy

I’m sorry for the delay too, please don’t think that I have lost interest in our discussion, it’s just that the last two weeks have been crazy for me. I have been working with the rats in the laboratory and even though I do enjoy lab work but the problem is that I’m allergic to rats fur and I suffer pretty much because of it and the tablets don’t seem to help me. Also staying at uni after lectures and coming to the lab on the weekends got me pretty tired. Thankfully it’s only two days left till I’m finished for a little while so yay hehe!

I understand how the cmap of my phobia is pretty small but I’m sure I can be adding lots of things to it if I tried hehe.

All these days I have been trying to change my attitude to the metro train slowing down and I think I’m getting a little bit better. Thankfully it doesn’t stop very often but at least I don’t get that tingling feeling of fear every time the speed goes down. I consider it as quite a good result of our discussion

I don’t mind translating the journal, it’s just that I’m not sure how to do it in Acrobat Reader. The English version is fine for me though. I haven’t tried using it yet and the reason is that I feel some sort of resistance – I don’t like the idea of thinking about the worst things that could happen if the train stopped. I guess it’s a normal reaction and I have to try and overcome that resistance but I’m afraid that if I do imagine all the bad things that could happen it might make me even more nervous next time I’m on the train. The difference between my phobia and, for example, phobia of caterpillars, is that a caterpillar can’t harm a person in any way, it can’t even bite properly, but the metro or the plane could really be dangerous, even though the chances are very slim, the possibility is still there. After all people do die in plane crashes but nobody has ever died from seeing a caterpillar. Do you know what I mean?

I have heard of PMR but have never tried doing it so I promise I will and tell you the results. I think I’d rather do it at home that on the metro even though people don’t seem to care what you are doing lol. I am also familiar with Socratic questioning and sometimes when I try to calm myself down I talk to myself with a similar manner but don’t usually come to very positive conclusions lol.

Hmm I have been thinking about the abandonment issue again and have come to conclusion that it doesn’t have much to do with my fear. After all, I’m not scared of not returning to my group, I’m scared of not getting out at all. Also being able to communicate with the outer world from the metro (via mobile phone, for example) does make it easier but only because that means I can ask for help and let people know I need to be rescued etc. The problem is though that you hardly ever get signal underground, so most of the time you can’t even use your phone for communication.

Yeah, I remember Курск, but, even though it was a big tragedy, it happened so far away that it didn’t have a direct impact on me. Russia is a very big country so when something happens in a different town you don’t take it as close I don’t think. We have had enough incidents in Moscow that had a lot more impact on me I think. I don’t understand though how Курск is connected to abandonment because they just weren’t saved on time, not abandoned by everyone. Probably that’s what I’m more afraid of – not being saved on time.

I would still say the fear of not being in control is greater. I don’t like danger in general and try to avoid any situations that could be risky. I admire people who can climb the mountains or jump with a parachute but I think they are a little bit crazy as well and I know I would never do something like that.

Yeah you could be right, me and my Mum could have trained each other to be the way we are but for some reason that behaviour makes sense to me. I find it a lot stranger when people don’t care of someone is not home 3 hours later than he was supposed to be etc. After all living in a big city could have had its impact on that attitude – there are too many dangers around, it’s not as calm and peaceful as living in a small village where everyone knows each other. Would you agree with me?

I’m not exactly sure what you mean about the metro being eerie, I can just say that Moscow metro is very busy even late at night but you can come across some drunk or aggressive (or both) people sometimes. There is always police everywhere though so it’s hardly ever a real problem.

I wonder whether if I could see that the signal was on red I would be less anxious or not. Probably I woudn’t worry as much at first but my anxiety would grow the longer the red light would be on.

Thank you very much for finding the information about what happens when the train stops, I really appreciate it. I’m sure there must be special procedures for the Moscow metro as well. I never really gave it a thought that people that work on the metro have probably been trained how to act in a situation of emergency. Just a thought of it already makes me feel better hehe!

I have checked out the urbanrail website and haven’t found any information on emergency there but have found lots of other information about the metro that I found pretty interesting.

That’s great you have a nice photo for the Ofear competition, you can try and participate next month! I haven’t won this time but it’s kinda good news cause that means more people are participating hehe! You should join in

Ellen Wrote:I’m sorry for the delay too, please don’t think that I have lost interest in our discussion, it’s just that the last two weeks have been crazy for me.

Don’t worry, a professor once said I was a highly motivated and promising young student, hmmm I wonder what went wrong. :laugh:

Quote:I have been working with the rats in the laboratory and even though I do enjoy lab work but the problem is that I’m allergic to rats fur and I suffer pretty much because of it and the tablets don’t seem to help me.

Have you tried wearing a dust mask and latex ‘surgeon’s’ gloves?

Quote:Also staying at uni after lectures and coming to the lab on the weekends got me pretty tired. Thankfully it’s only two days left till I’m finished for a little while so yay hehe!

At least there are word processors now, no more writing everything out in long hand and the paying someone to type your dissertation for you. :lol:

Quote:I understand how the cmap of my phobia is pretty small but I’m sure I can be adding lots of things to it if I tried hehe.

I think that if you get the time it would be a very useful exercise not only for your phobia but also your future career.

Quote:All these days I have been trying to change my attitude to the metro train slowing down and I think I’m getting a little bit better. Thankfully it doesn’t stop very often but at least I don’t get that tingling feeling of fear every time the speed goes down. I consider it as quite a good result of our discussion

I think that is a great result. I know how hard it is to control one’s thoughts while under stress; I hope you get the same sense of pride as the rest of the forum does from from your achievements. ssmile

Quote:I don’t mind translating the journal, it’s just that I’m not sure how to do it in Acrobat Reader. The English version is fine for me though.

I think it needs Acrobat Pro to make the alterations, which means I would have to find and install a suitable Cyrillic font and do it at my end. So not an insurmountable problem if you do want your own Russian version I am just lazy. :lol:

Quote:I haven’t tried using it yet and the reason is that I feel some sort of resistance – I don’t like the idea of thinking about the worst things that could happen if the train stopped. I guess it’s a normal reaction and I have to try and overcome that resistance but I’m afraid that if I do imagine all the bad things that could happen it might make me even more nervous next time I’m on the train.

Yes, I see your point. Would you like to try something a little different first? I have found of all things a flock of virtual train simulators. shappy

This is a YouTube video showing a Russian U-train 81-717 add-on for the Microsoft Train Simulator.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBvyMQgGtUg[/youtube]

The actual add-ons should be available from one of these sites but as you know I cannot read Russian so I have no idea which one has the Moscow metro. :lol:

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://train-driver.ru">http://train-driver.ru</a><!-- m -->

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://ponikifo.narod.ru">http://ponikifo.narod.ru</a><!-- m -->

This is a YouTube video showing the LU Northern Line with 1995 stock add-on for the free BVE4 train simulator.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qhISW8k3YM[/youtube]

The software is here: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://mackoy.cool.ne.jp">http://mackoy.cool.ne.jp</a><!-- m -->

Help in English is here: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.trainsimcentral.co.uk/help.htm">http://www.trainsimcentral.co.uk/help.htm</a><!-- m -->

…and the add-on is here: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.trainsimcentral.co.uk/northern.htm">http://www.trainsimcentral.co.uk/northern.htm</a><!-- m --> - LU Northern Lines - BVE2 & BVE4

Quote:I am also familiar with Socratic questioning and sometimes when I try to calm myself down I talk to myself with a similar manner but don’t usually come to very positive conclusions lol.

:lol:, this is why I suggest using a thought diary. The brain contains two tiny glands called the amygdala. When they are stimulated in humans it results in negative thoughts and when they are suppressed our thoughts are more positive. What we are trying to achieve is a balance assessment of the dangers by finding the most realistic scenario. Even if we cannot see if the signal is on red it is far more likely that it is rather than the train is broken wouldn’t you say?

Quote:Hmm I have been thinking about the abandonment issue again and have come to conclusion that it doesn’t have much to do with my fear. After all, I’m not scared of not returning to my group, I’m scared of not getting out at all.

:lol: Okay we will ‘abandon' that thought for now then. ;]

Quote:Also being able to communicate with the outer world from the metro (via mobile phone, for example) does make it easier but only because that means I can ask for help and let people know I need to be rescued etc. The problem is though that you hardly ever get signal underground, so most of the time you can’t even use your phone for communication.

Metro trains have radio links to central control don’t they? That is something we might need to look into.

Quote:I remember Курск, but, even though it was a big tragedy, it happened so far away that it didn’t have a direct impact on me. Russia is a very big country so when something happens in a different town you don’t take it as close I don’t think. We have had enough incidents in Moscow that had a lot more impact on me I think. I don’t understand though how Курск is connected to abandonment because they just weren’t saved on time, not abandoned by everyone. Probably that’s what I’m more afraid of – not being saved on time.

I wasn’t thinking of abandonment here, I was thinking of the year (2000), which would be around the time you started travelling alone on the metro wouldn’t it? And the fact they could not be saved in time.

Quote:I would still say the fear of not being in control is greater. I don’t like danger in general and try to avoid any situations that could be risky. I admire people who can climb the mountains or jump with a parachute but I think they are a little bit crazy as well and I know I would never do something like that.

I agree, being in control seem very important to you. This is neither good nor bad, it is just you. I think once you accept that you are in control of your situation rather than having to rely on an outside 'agency' (In this case another passenger, a friend or the emergency services) your fears will start to disperse. =D

Quote:…you could be right, me and my Mum could have trained each other to be the way we are but for some reason that behaviour makes sense to me. I find it a lot stranger when people don’t care of someone is not home 3 hours later than he was supposed to be etc.

I agree, you mum obviously cares for you and her behaviour towards you has obviously paid off because now she has a daughter she can be proud of. =D

Quote:I’m not exactly sure what you mean about the metro being eerie…

Perhaps it is just me. :lol: Here are some pix of the LU, it is far spookier in real life. :lol:

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<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.cavinguk.co.uk/holidays/London2006/normal/DownUnderground.jpg">http://www.cavinguk.co.uk/holidays/Lond ... ground.jpg</a><!-- m -->

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.spritzle.com/blog/images/londonunderground_lg.jpg">http://www.spritzle.com/blog/images/lon ... und_lg.jpg</a><!-- m -->

Quote:Thank you very much for finding the information about what happens when the train stops, I really appreciate it. I’m sure there must be special procedures for the Moscow metro as well. I never really gave it a thought that people that work on the metro have probably been trained how to act in a situation of emergency. Just a thought of it already makes me feel better hehe!

You are welcome. =D After I posted my last reply I ask JonnyJonny_UK if there was anything that I had missed as he has experience of railways and he has found lots more information for you. For example electric trains in the UK carry a device for shorting out the tracks in case the passengers are forced to leave the train, so even if you cannot contact central control at least you will be able to escape safely. (Edited to add link 25/11/07 http://www.ofear.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=1553&sid )

Quote:That’s great you have a nice photo for the Ofear competition, you can try and participate next month! I haven’t won this time but it’s kinda good news cause that means more people are participating hehe! You should join in

I am not sure mine are nice photos, but they are different. :lol: I actually voted for your picture, I like the ‘squirrel eye view’ so I was surprised it didn’t win perhaps there is hope for one of mine after all. :lol: ;]

Lol I’m not surprised that the professor once said it to you, you do sounds like you were a promising student. I don’t think anything went wrong because you’re very good at helping people hehe!

Yes I have been wearing the dust mask and it made it a little bit easier but I probably need to wear a gas mask instead for all the symptoms to go away lol. I have finished my work with the animals over a week ago but I still have my allergy symptoms. They are going slowly though so hopefully by next year I’ll be back to normal again lol.

Yeah I agree it’s a lot easier to do the work on the pc even though I’m still far away from typing my work out. Still too much left to do hehe. I will start going to the laboratory again on Monday but thankfully there won’t be any fur anymore, just tissue for immunohistochemistry lol.

As I told you I got something to tell you, and unfortunately the news isn’t that good. My phobia was getting better the more we were talking about it but yesterday the situation changed drastically. I started feeling the anxiety I had a few months ago, getting worried for no reason or what seems to be no reason, got the symptoms that I had back then (sickness, pains). I can’t be sure what has triggered it in the first place but I think I know what strengthened it. I read on the news that on the metro line where I travel every day a rail has cracked and because of it the trains are going less often than normal. I am perfectly aware that a cracked rail is not really a danger and that it wouldn’t lead to any problems with the train but for some strange reason that news made me feel very anxious. I think that’s because the anxiety had already started the day before that. So when I went on the metro I had to take a different route to avoid that place with the cracked rail, and during the trip I felt very nervous and tense. It was so bad that when I actually got outside I almost fainted from relief. Strangely, on my way back I didn’t feel very nervous and got home ok. This morning on my way to Uni I was nervous again and had to take a calming pill but again, on the way back I felt absolutely fine. I thought it was so weird! I have been talking to myself throughout the journey trying not to let the anxiety to take the best of me but it was pretty difficult.

I don’t feel the anxiety at the moment but I just want to prevent it happening again next time I go on the metro.

I don’t mind having the English version of the journal, I’m sure that sort of thing would help me under normal circumstances, but not with my anxiety now.

Thanks for finding me so many train simulators! I probably should have mentioned it earlier but I have already player a train simulator – not because of my phobia but just for fun. To be more exact, I’m not afraid of trains in general – only when they are underground.

I should really do something to my amygdala cause it has been playing up lately LOL. I’m joking of course, I just guess I need to try and use my frontal lobes to overpower the influence of amygdala. I understand that there is always a smaller chance that the train has broken, but for example, the longer it stops for in the tunnel, the more I keep thinking that something must be wrong.

I understand why you mentioned Kursk but as I have already said I don’t think it influenced me much back then. It seemed like something so far away and kinda unrealistic.

Yeah being in control is really very important to me. When I have those anxiety attacks, what bothers me most is that I can’t control myself anymore and no logical reasoning seems to work.

The pictures of the underground you have sent do look a little scary lol! Moscow metro is hardly ever like it, it’s pretty light and busy, I should try and take some pics for you of you like.

Jonny hasn’t posted the information yet but I’m guessing that he is probably very busy doing all the stuff for the forum. I will ask him to find the time to post it!

From your posts in the Ofear Photo Studio I gathered that you have submitted a picture for the competition this time! You have suggested a very difficult theme but I guess that makes it more interesting in the end! Thanks for voting for my picture last month

Ellen Wrote:Lol I’m not surprised that the professor once said it to you, you do sounds like you were a promising student. I don’t think anything went wrong because you’re very good at helping people hehe!

Awww, thank you Ellen, I am still playing catch up after last week. =D

Quote:Yes I have been wearing the dust mask and it made it a little bit easier but I probably need to wear a gas mask instead for all the symptoms to go away lol. I have finished my work with the animals over a week ago but I still have my allergy symptoms. They are going slowly though so hopefully by next year I’ll be back to normal again lol.

Well I hope you are going into clinical work rather than animal research, I would hate to think of you wearing a gas mask for the rest of your days. :laugh:

Quote:Yeah I agree it’s a lot easier to do the work on the pc even though I’m still far away from typing my work out. Still too much left to do hehe. I will start going to the laboratory again on Monday but thankfully there won’t be any fur anymore, just tissue for immunohistochemistry lol.

Ah, now you have started your immunohistochemistry module I bet you want your own microscope for Christmas… :lol:

Quote:As I told you I got something to tell you, and unfortunately the news isn’t that good. My phobia was getting better the more we were talking about it but yesterday the situation changed drastically. I started feeling the anxiety I had a few months ago, getting worried for no reason or what seems to be no reason, got the symptoms that I had back then (sickness, pains). I can’t be sure what has triggered it in the first place but I think I know what strengthened it. I read on the news that on the metro line where I travel every day a rail has cracked and because of it the trains are going less often than normal. I am perfectly aware that a cracked rail is not really a danger and that it wouldn’t lead to any problems with the train but for some strange reason that news made me feel very anxious. I think that’s because the anxiety had already started the day before that. So when I went on the metro I had to take a different route to avoid that place with the cracked rail, and during the trip I felt very nervous and tense. It was so bad that when I actually got outside I almost fainted from relief. Strangely, on my way back I didn’t feel very nervous and got home ok. This morning on my way to Uni I was nervous again and had to take a calming pill but again, on the way back I felt absolutely fine. I thought it was so weird! I have been talking to myself throughout the journey trying not to let the anxiety to take the best of me but it was pretty difficult.

Okay, I know have already mentioned this but for the benefit of the forum I will go through it from the start:

We started talking about what appeared to be a fear of flying on the 9th of September we have since added a fear of lifts, travelling alone on the metro, being locked or shut in a room and loss of control. We have eliminated Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD), fear of abandonment, and even the Kursk. :lol: This tells me you are suffering from agoraphobia with panic like symptoms. How do I know it is not claustrophobia? You can travel by bus or car your anxiety on the plane start with the take off and ends with the landing; you fear loss of control, and it is worse when you travel alone…

Quote:I don’t mind having the English version of the journal, I’m sure that sort of thing would help me under normal circumstances, but not with my anxiety now.

Agoraphobia is a complex cluster of phobias that make the treatment more complex but not impossible to treat the first thing is relaxation; the best methods for this are Tai Chi Chan and yoga although PMR and hypnotherapy can help too. Do you remember when we talked about sensory processing and the sixth sense – proprioception or the positional sense? There is a theory that for some people it is a spatial sensing problem and by practicing Tai Chi or yoga this can be corrected while learn to relax at the same time… No I cannot see anything relaxing about practice yoga in a leotard but that could be a shyness thing. :laugh:

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You mentioned in another post that only one friend and your boyfriend know about your condition do you think one of them would be willing to sit down and go through the process with you?

However, SD won’t work in isolation, as agoraphobia is a complex condition we need to employ Cognitive Therapy too. Which is what we have been talking about doing with the thought diary. _cheesygrin::

So are you willing to try again or would you like to talk things through first? Hey we are counting on you to be Ofears! first recovery. =D

Quote:Thanks for finding me so many train simulators!

You are welcome. =D

Quote:I probably should have mentioned it earlier but I have already player a train simulator – not because of my phobia but just for fun. To be more exact, I’m not afraid of trains in general – only when they are underground.

That is because you are not claustrophobic but agoraphobic. shappy

Quote:I should really do something to my amygdala cause it has been playing up lately LOL. I’m joking of course, I just guess I need to try and use my frontal lobes to overpower the influence of amygdala. I understand that there is always a smaller chance that the train has broken, but for example, the longer it stops for in the tunnel, the more I keep thinking that something must be wrong.

This is where the CT comes in at the moment you are showing all the signs of ‘catastrophic’ rather than realistic thinking. Which of course is another sign that it is agoraphobia. What I want you to do is start your thought diary as best you can, then we will look for realistic alternative thoughts that you can make into ‘flash cards’, is this okay with you Ellen? ssmile

Quote:The pictures of the underground you have sent do look a little scary lol! Moscow metro is hardly ever like it, it’s pretty light and busy, I should try and take some pics for you of you like.

Yes please, after seeing Jonny’s picture of a Russia park I am curious to see more of Moscow. =D

Quote:From your posts in the Ofear Photo Studio I gathered that you have submitted a picture for the competition this time! You have suggested a very difficult theme but I guess that makes it more interesting in the end!

Yes I have submitted a picture, I hoped by picking surrealism I wouldn’t have any competition. :lol: I was going to send you a copy and ask your opinion first and then realised you might think I was trying to influence your vote… ;]

Quote:Thanks for voting for my picture last month

You are welcome. =D Have you entered this month’s competition or am I still in with a chance? :laugh:

Hi Ellen

I have some more homework for you. I I know we have been though this before in an earlier post but I think we need to add more structure. Would you agree with that?

First of all I want you to look at all your fears and rate them one to ten on a sheet of paper. So that the thought you find least frightening is rated lower and the ones you find most frightening are rated at ten.

When you feel ready I want you to do your relaxation exercises and then with your trusted partner (I am guessing you have chosen some one to help you already) I want you to imagine that you are on the metro…

Starting with your lowest rated fear, I want your partner to tell you what is happen. For example “the train is slowing down now”…

Remember to keep breathing, gentle blowing the air though your lips and let your lungs fill naturally. (If you lay the palm of your hand on your tummy you will feel it going in and out)

Try to tell your partner any thoughts you are having and try to look for alternatives (your partner should try and write them down but not to worry if they cannot keep up)

If you feel yourself getting too anxious I want you to raise your hand and imagine the train (or whatever the fear you are working on) is moving normally again. Try to keep each session to about 20 minutes although don’t worry if you need to cut it short to begin with that is perfectly normal.

When you feel that the first anxiety is low enough move on to the next.

After each session try to spend a few minutes filling in your thought diary. Due to the nature of your phobia and the fact I enjoy chatting with you I would like us to do some cognitive work as well. shappy

Hopefully we will soon have at least two Ofear! champions. =D

Don't worry I'm not gonna work in the laboratory after uni, it's only for my year project. And I wouldn't want a microscope for Christmas, get enough of them buggers at the lab lmao!

It was quite surprising for me to find out that what I have could be agoraphobia. But as you said that was probably because I was mistaken about what it actually means. My boyfriend told me that lately I seem a lot different when we go outside the house compared to when I'm at home. He says I seem happier at home and more serious and subdued outside. I guess that only proves that you could be right about agoraphobia.

I don't mind having homework to do especially when it's something that can make me feel better.

I have done your homework with the help of my boyfriend and I have pm'ed you the results. There is a list of fears, already rated, followed by the thoughts I get in those situations and the alternatives I could think of. I would really like to know your opinion on that homework so let me know what you think, please.

Also, I didn't feel ANY anxiety when I was doing it sitting on the sofa. I was breathing like you told me and never had to stop the procedure because I felt pretty comfortable. At least I thought I did. Just as the homework was finished, I burst into tears and I couldn't even understand where it came from. I mean, obviously it came from my fears but I was surprised that it was so sudden and only when everything was already over.

I would love to become the second Ofear champion and I will try my best to do so.

Ellen Wrote:Don't worry I'm not gonna work in the laboratory after uni, it's only for my year project. And I wouldn't want a microscope for Christmas, get enough of them buggers at the lab lmao!

:lol: ...Have you been taking English lessons from Lolly again. :laugh: (Sorry Lolly you know we love you really xxx)

Quote:It was quite surprising for me to find out that what I have could be agoraphobia. But as you said that was probably because I was mistaken about what it actually means. My boyfriend told me that lately I seem a lot different when we go outside the house compared to when I'm at home. He says I seem happier at home and more serious and subdued outside. I guess that only proves that you could be right about agoraphobia.

I think the misunderstanding comes from the difference between definitions laid out in the diagnostic manuals and the clinical picture.. Take Social Phobia for example, we know that most sufferers have ruminating thoughts however so do people with depression, etc it cannot be used to give a clear diagnosis, so it is left out of the diagnostic manuals.

Your symptoms show four possibilities that we have discussed in some detail and the best fit, in fact the only one we cannot eliminate is agoraphobia (or depending how one wishes to define it agoraphobia without Panic Disorder)

Quote:I don't mind having homework to do especially when it's something that can make me feel better.

ssmile

Quote:I have done your homework with the help of my boyfriend and I have pm'ed you the results. There is a list of fears, already rated, followed by the thoughts I get in those situations and the alternatives I could think of. I would really like to know your opinion on that homework so let me know what you think, please.

Thank you Ellen, I found it interesting, did you notice when you used imagery you NATs became more intense? The reason for this is the ones you told me about earlier in the thread were how you remembered them, the ones your b/f helped you with are the ones you are actually experiencing on the train.

Quote:Also, I didn't feel ANY anxiety when I was doing it sitting on the sofa. I was breathing like you told me and never had to stop the procedure because I felt pretty comfortable. At least I thought I did. Just as the homework was finished, I burst into tears and I couldn't even understand where it came from. I mean, obviously it came from my fears but I was surprised that it was so sudden and only when everything was already over.

It is unusual in the case of agoraphobia; around 75% of sufferers also have a comorbid diagnosis of Panic Disorder. From what you have told me in the PM your thoughts were distressing enough to trigger a panic attack but for some reason did not, instead the stress caused tearfulness. Can you remember ever crying after getting off the real metro?

One thing you might not have noticed, you said in another thread that you would be the one who will panic and ended up under the rescue train – clearly this would not be the case, you seem a very level headed young woman, despite your phobia. =D

Quote:I would love to become the second Ofear champion and I will try my best to do so.

I think you are doing really well Ellen and II have every faith that you will succeed in conquering your fears to become our next champion. =D

Yeah the more I think about it the more it sounds right to me that I might be agoraphobic. One good thing about it is that maybe I didn't get positive results before because I was trying to get rid of the wrong phobia? Hopefully this time with your help I can feel better finally.

Yes my NATs were more intense because when I was using imagery I was expressing them emotionally whilst when I just tell you about them I try to use my common sense a bit more lol. My boyfriend says he was very surprised at what thoughts I can get on the train, he said he would have never imagined someone could have some of them thoughts lol.

I don't get panic attacks but when I'm on the train I experience constant tension cause I'm always "expecting" something if you know what I mean. When I have especially hard journeys I do get tearful and that usually happens when I come out of the metro, when I feel relieved. If was probably the same during the homework, I got tears when I was relieved that all that experience was over.

To be honest, lately (last few weeks) I have noticed that I have become a lot more tearful, I cry pretty often, usually when I'm worried about going on the metro or sometimes just for no particular reason. I usually feel a bit better after that but I still think it's wrong to be like that all the time.

In your private message you have asked me to describe my anxiety. Well, I feel nervous, get shaky legs and hands, my palms get sweaty, I get hot, also there is this feeling in the stomach, feeling of anticipating but it's not a good one, like a tingling. But all of these symptoms are not very strong, I doubt that other people on the metro notice that something is worrying me, at least it doesn't look like they do.

Another thing has happened that I would like to talk about. A few years ago there was a horrible act of terrorism in a small town in Russia, pretty far away from where I live. It was on the first of September, when kids start school, and the terrorists got into one of the schools and held everyone hostage for a few days and many people and especially kids died as the result of it. It was a huge tragedy for the country and you could even notice a change in people's faces in the street cause everyone was influenced by it. I think it was about half a year after the metro bomb but I'm not sure to be honest. A few days after that happened I had something strange happen to me in the street. I felt something weird going on with my eye, like I'm losing eyesight but I still can see fine. It lasted for about 5 mins and then went away. A few minutes later I felt my arm getting numb, then my lips, then tongue, then throat. It all lasted about 10-15 mins and then just went away. I panicked like crazy but was trying not to show it cause I was in a public place. Thankfully my Mum was with me at the time so she was calming me down. After that I went to the doctor, they checked my blood vessels and they turned out to be very good, then they checked my reflexes and they were a lot more responsive than normal. The doctor sayd it might be connected with what had happened a few days ago, meaning that terrorist act, and prescribed me glycin 3 times a day. Well, the strange thing is that happened again in the uni yesterday and I was pretty surprised and worried to have it back. I feel like I should do something about it but not sure what. Is it just something you get when you have anxiety?

I will try to become the next Ofear champion but it's a bit hard at the moment, hopefully it will get easier soon.

Ellen Wrote:Yeah the more I think about it the more it sounds right to me that I might be agoraphobic. One good thing about it is that maybe I didn't get positive results before because I was trying to get rid of the wrong phobia?

I agree, from the posts I have read and what you have told me you have been trying to treat anxiety and at least three different phobias rather than seeing that the common link is loss of control which has eventually lead us to a diagnosis of agoraphobia.

Jonny has made an excellent post on agoraphobia I would like you to look at I think it might give you a better you understanding or the condition.

Ellen Wrote:Yes my NATs were more intense because when I was using imagery I was expressing them emotionally whilst when I just tell you about them I try to use my common sense a bit more lol. My boyfriend says he was very surprised at what thoughts I can get on the train, he said he would have never imagined someone could have some of them thoughts lol.

:lol: he is lucky he doesn’t have to listen to some of mine then. Did you notice how although your NATs do have logic to them the actual risk of any coming true is very slim. That is not to say your fears are not real, rather you are adding too much weight to circumstantial evidence.

Ellen Wrote:I don't get panic attacks but when I'm on the train I experience constant tension cause I'm always "expecting" something if you know what I mean. When I have especially hard journeys I do get tearful and that usually happens when I come out of the metro, when I feel relieved. If was probably the same during the homework, I got tears when I was relieved that all that experience was over.

Yes I understand and I agree with you evaluation of the situation. This is where the relaxation techniques should help.

Ellen Wrote:To be honest, lately (last few weeks) I have noticed that I have become a lot more tearful, I cry pretty often, usually when I'm worried about going on the metro or sometimes just for no particular reason. I usually feel a bit better after that but I still think it's wrong to be like that all the time.

Can you put a hand on the top and back of your shoulder, what does it feel like? Would you say that the muscle is hard and unyielding? Do your muscles feel tense, stiff and heavy or would you say there is still a bounce in your step? Write down you answers in secret and then ask your boyfriend the same questions. (I think I already know the answer but I want you to be aware of the role your body plays in the stress cycle)

Ellen Wrote:In your private message you have asked me to describe my anxiety. Well, I feel nervous, get shaky legs and hands, my palms get sweaty, I get hot, also there is this feeling in the stomach, feeling of anticipating but it's not a good one, like a tingling. But all of these symptoms are not very strong, I doubt that other people on the metro notice that something is worrying me, at least it doesn't look like they do

.

I think you are right the only people who will notice a difference are those closest to you. It is rather like my Social Phobia, while I had it under control (for over 18 year) I could claim to be a little shy and get away with it, obviously since my relapse it is a lot harder. :lol:

Ellen Wrote:Another thing has happened that I would like to talk about. A few years ago there was a horrible act of terrorism in a small town in Russia, pretty far away from where I live. It was on the first of September, when kids start school, and the terrorists got into one of the schools and held everyone hostage for a few days and many people and especially kids died as the result of it. It was a huge tragedy for the country and you could even notice a change in people's faces in the street cause everyone was influenced by it. I think it was about half a year after the metro bomb but I'm not sure to be honest.

The metro bombing was February 2004 and Beslan (which I remember watching on the news) was September of the same year. That would put you between 15 and 18 and you had you first anxiety attack at 14 is that right?

There is something else I find interesting, how much of the two incidents do you remember and how would you have acquired the information, did you watch the news, hear about it at school or your family?...

Ellen Wrote:A few days after that happened I had something strange happen to me in the street. I felt something weird going on with my eye, like I'm losing eyesight but I still can see fine. It lasted for about 5 mins and then went away. A few minutes later I felt my arm getting numb, then my lips, then tongue, then throat. It all lasted about 10-15 mins and then just went away. I panicked like crazy but was trying not to show it cause I was in a public place. Thankfully my Mum was with me at the time so she was calming me down. After that I went to the doctor, they checked my blood vessels and they turned out to be very good, then they checked my reflexes and they were a lot more responsive than normal. The doctor sayd it might be connected with what had happened a few days ago, meaning that terrorist act, and prescribed me glycin 3 times a day. Well, the strange thing is that happened again in the uni yesterday and I was pretty surprised and worried to have it back. I feel like I should do something about it but not sure what. Is it just something you get when you have anxiety?

Did you have shortness of breath, were you gasping for air, or even holding your breath? Would your mum remember? What about uni, what happened there? From your description you are either having a panic attack or you are hyperventilating. In both cases it is nothing harmful, just physical manifestations of your anxiety.

The glycin however is a mystery. Can you remember anything unusual about it? Perhaps it was a small tablet that you had to hold under your tongue until it dissolved or hold between your top lip and gum?

Ellen Wrote:I will try to become the next Ofear champion but it's a bit hard at the moment, hopefully it will get easier soon.

Look how far you have come; we all have every faith in you Ellen to get yourself better. =D

Anyway I want to negotiate some more homework so I have sent you a PM outlining our options and when you have chosen one we can add it to our thread. shappy

I have read Jonny's post on Agoraphobia and have found lots of interesting information about this disorder. Some of the things sounded very much like me, others were something I have never felt, which I think is good lol. Seems like the only good treatment for it is CBT so hopefully it will help me too.

Yes, of course I understand that the chances of my NATs realising are very slim but for some reason they still keep me worried. I have to admit I have been feeling a little better on the metro lately, at least my anxiety is minimum when I'm with my boyfriend and not as strong as it was a week earlier when I'm on my own. Sometimes I get stronger anxiety just knowing that I have to go on the metro alone the next day than I actually feel on the train. I find it pretty strange but I have heard that other people have it too, even you said you have felt really bad just anticipating a public speech you had to make.

I have done the exercise with putting the hand on my shoulder and then asking my boyfriend what he thinks of my muscles. I didn't think it was stiff but my boyfriend lingered for a while and said that yeah, it does feel pretty tense, but he said it was quite a difficult question. I was pretty surprised cause I have been feeling pretty relaxed because I haven't gone on the metro today and not planning to go tomorrow so I thought my muscles will not be as bad hehe!

Talking about metro bombing and Beslan, I was 18 then and yeah I did feel a bit nervous on the train when I was 14. I remember that I was staying at my friend's that week and on the day when I was supposed to go home she woke me up and said "I don't want to upset you but there was an explosion on the metro today". It was crazy going back on the metro on that same day, I thought I'd go mad. I think most of the passangers were pretty scared too. I didn't use the metro after that for 2 years. I didn't see it on the news, not sure how that happened though.

Beslan was on the news for a few days and everyone was watching it back then so I do remember watching about it every day for a few days that it had been going.

That thing that happened to me at uni, I really doubt that it was a panic attack or hyperventilation because I was breathing steady and didn't feel much panic. Well, I did the first time because I didn't know what was happening to me but the second time I knew that it would go away so I wasn't worried as much. I was concerned that it was happening but is it enough to call it panic attack?

Yes, glycine is a small white tablet that I had to hold under my tongue. It's just an inhibitory mediator, I still use it sometimes, it seems to be helping a little.

Thanks for your support and thank you for helping all us sufferers on the forum.